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	<title>Comments on: Reader, I went to a complementary therapy debate and had these thoughts</title>
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		<title>By: Trevor Ginn</title>
		<link>http://frontierpsychiatrist.co.uk/reader-i-went-to-a-complimentary-therapy-debate-and-had-these-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-12130</link>
		<dc:creator>Trevor Ginn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 08:55:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://frontierpsychiatrist.co.uk/?p=608#comment-12130</guid>
		<description>I think that Ben Elton summed it up well in a stand up show I saw a while back when he said that these day people trust no-one but believe anything!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that Ben Elton summed it up well in a stand up show I saw a while back when he said that these day people trust no-one but believe anything!</p>
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		<title>By: Anj A</title>
		<link>http://frontierpsychiatrist.co.uk/reader-i-went-to-a-complimentary-therapy-debate-and-had-these-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-11489</link>
		<dc:creator>Anj A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Jun 2009 21:27:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://frontierpsychiatrist.co.uk/?p=608#comment-11489</guid>
		<description>This is an argument that I tend to have with myself more than with other people, as it usually creates the kind of tension written about above. It may even be up for consideration to be added to the list of things you simply don&#039;t bring up, after religion and politics, respectively. 

While I am trained in the sciences, to be objective, and tend to see all complementary medicine as pseudo-scientific, lately the world of the subjective has begun to haunt me. Keep in mind I have no medical training. But, I&#039;ve had a hard time writing off the effectiveness of a placebo and wonder why we don&#039;t investigate more deeply. 

I&#039;ll try to illustrate. If you feel stressed out, you may develop tension. This is an effect of your mental state on your physical state. &quot;Feeling stressed&quot; is subjective. But the tension, if measured by say a rise BP or tightening of certain muscle groups, etc can be measured. So it is an objective change in your physical state. This is pretty obvious. 

There have been studies that correlate weakened immune systems and higher frequencies of illness among people who receive a great deal of contempt from their partner.  

Again something highly subjective that has a measurable effect. 

When it comes to something like acupuncture, and a lot of other complementary medicinal practices, why do we not give weight to their ability to manipulate the subjective side of the healing equation. I&#039;m not trying to argue that acupuncture works. But wonder about the role &quot;feeling&quot; something has in medicine.

The statement, &quot;They feel like it helps so it helps a little&quot; is, to me, one that is under analyzed given that the changes are measurable. If we know certain feelings can assist in the healing process, why do we not dig deeper and try to find out what feeling may have helped create the illness?
Is that nuts? Has medicine solved the origin of disease to point where this query is no longer valid? To say &quot;thinking positive&quot; or &quot;thinking negative&quot; will help or hurt a patients chances of recovery means to me there is much more to learn about the role of thinking in healing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an argument that I tend to have with myself more than with other people, as it usually creates the kind of tension written about above. It may even be up for consideration to be added to the list of things you simply don&#8217;t bring up, after religion and politics, respectively. </p>
<p>While I am trained in the sciences, to be objective, and tend to see all complementary medicine as pseudo-scientific, lately the world of the subjective has begun to haunt me. Keep in mind I have no medical training. But, I&#8217;ve had a hard time writing off the effectiveness of a placebo and wonder why we don&#8217;t investigate more deeply. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ll try to illustrate. If you feel stressed out, you may develop tension. This is an effect of your mental state on your physical state. &#8220;Feeling stressed&#8221; is subjective. But the tension, if measured by say a rise BP or tightening of certain muscle groups, etc can be measured. So it is an objective change in your physical state. This is pretty obvious. </p>
<p>There have been studies that correlate weakened immune systems and higher frequencies of illness among people who receive a great deal of contempt from their partner.  </p>
<p>Again something highly subjective that has a measurable effect. </p>
<p>When it comes to something like acupuncture, and a lot of other complementary medicinal practices, why do we not give weight to their ability to manipulate the subjective side of the healing equation. I&#8217;m not trying to argue that acupuncture works. But wonder about the role &#8220;feeling&#8221; something has in medicine.</p>
<p>The statement, &#8220;They feel like it helps so it helps a little&#8221; is, to me, one that is under analyzed given that the changes are measurable. If we know certain feelings can assist in the healing process, why do we not dig deeper and try to find out what feeling may have helped create the illness?<br />
Is that nuts? Has medicine solved the origin of disease to point where this query is no longer valid? To say &#8220;thinking positive&#8221; or &#8220;thinking negative&#8221; will help or hurt a patients chances of recovery means to me there is much more to learn about the role of thinking in healing.</p>
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		<title>By: TimA</title>
		<link>http://frontierpsychiatrist.co.uk/reader-i-went-to-a-complimentary-therapy-debate-and-had-these-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-11456</link>
		<dc:creator>TimA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 14:08:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://frontierpsychiatrist.co.uk/?p=608#comment-11456</guid>
		<description>My admirable better half (who has seen a fair bit of the inside of Guys and St Thomas&#039; of late) suggests that alternative medicine presents a greater sense of control: I can take something that seems simple, non-harming and natural or someone will do something I can understand. Scientific medicine does not always do this. Medicines have strange names and a mix of brand and generic names, they have side effects. Control seems much diminished.

Furthermore, alternative practitioners tend to charge for their services and often give 30 minute appointments - enough time to talk and, more importantly, listen. I also suspect that it is a rare alternative practitioner who tells a patient that &#039;there is nothing we can do&#039;. A patient who has been told there is no certainty in a diagnosis at a hospital is likely to reach for certainty and in my experience (limited but not uncommon from what I&#039;ve read elsewhere) some alternative practitioners seem more willing to provide certainty. The last time I went to an osteopath he told me to stop taking anti-depressants - a very dangerous kind of certainty indeed.

Finally, you may wish to amend the text to read complementary rather than complimentary - that would be a most endearing form of treatment!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My admirable better half (who has seen a fair bit of the inside of Guys and St Thomas&#8217; of late) suggests that alternative medicine presents a greater sense of control: I can take something that seems simple, non-harming and natural or someone will do something I can understand. Scientific medicine does not always do this. Medicines have strange names and a mix of brand and generic names, they have side effects. Control seems much diminished.</p>
<p>Furthermore, alternative practitioners tend to charge for their services and often give 30 minute appointments &#8211; enough time to talk and, more importantly, listen. I also suspect that it is a rare alternative practitioner who tells a patient that &#8216;there is nothing we can do&#8217;. A patient who has been told there is no certainty in a diagnosis at a hospital is likely to reach for certainty and in my experience (limited but not uncommon from what I&#8217;ve read elsewhere) some alternative practitioners seem more willing to provide certainty. The last time I went to an osteopath he told me to stop taking anti-depressants &#8211; a very dangerous kind of certainty indeed.</p>
<p>Finally, you may wish to amend the text to read complementary rather than complimentary &#8211; that would be a most endearing form of treatment!</p>
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		<title>By: pj</title>
		<link>http://frontierpsychiatrist.co.uk/reader-i-went-to-a-complimentary-therapy-debate-and-had-these-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-11448</link>
		<dc:creator>pj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:30:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://frontierpsychiatrist.co.uk/?p=608#comment-11448</guid>
		<description>I think I tend towards the &#039;cult&#039; view point on this. While the majority of people are probably quite unaware that alternative therapies such as chiropractic and homeopathy are based on such bizarre ideas (try it out for yourself, see how many people you know are actually aware that homeopathy is about &#039;like cures like&#039; and diluting down to pure water, with more dilution = more power) the &#039;true believers&#039; are socialised into a cult which has &#039;radical&#039; and &#039;holistic&#039; undertones which chime with their interests.

Alternative practitioners themselves I think are somewhat deluded, and, rather than antipathy towards the educated medics, I think it is more that they genuinely don&#039;t think there&#039;s too much to medicine. If it were a class thing then alternative medicine would be the preserve of the working class, not the middle class.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I tend towards the &#8216;cult&#8217; view point on this. While the majority of people are probably quite unaware that alternative therapies such as chiropractic and homeopathy are based on such bizarre ideas (try it out for yourself, see how many people you know are actually aware that homeopathy is about &#8216;like cures like&#8217; and diluting down to pure water, with more dilution = more power) the &#8216;true believers&#8217; are socialised into a cult which has &#8216;radical&#8217; and &#8216;holistic&#8217; undertones which chime with their interests.</p>
<p>Alternative practitioners themselves I think are somewhat deluded, and, rather than antipathy towards the educated medics, I think it is more that they genuinely don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s too much to medicine. If it were a class thing then alternative medicine would be the preserve of the working class, not the middle class.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon from MotleyHealth.com</title>
		<link>http://frontierpsychiatrist.co.uk/reader-i-went-to-a-complimentary-therapy-debate-and-had-these-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-11368</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon from MotleyHealth.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 23:15:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://frontierpsychiatrist.co.uk/?p=608#comment-11368</guid>
		<description>Humans are gullible and the placebo effect is very powerful. I am currently moderating an ongoing debate surrounding &quot;fat burning beads&quot; which the UK has banned the sale of, but Americans are still getting spammed to death. People want to believe it works. Research (citation required...) has shown that acupuncture/acupressure does have a beneficial effect, but only due to the powerful placebo effect. People think it makes them better, so it does. After explaining this, one would be customer actually said &quot;Would a placebo help me?&quot; Ummm... yeah, so long as you do not know its a placebo .....

The keyword here though is complimentary. Compliment good medicine, but never use only alternatives.

As for vaccines, people just ignore science. There are countless research papers proving that there is no link between MMR and Autism, but just because a tabloid doctor said there was 10 years ago, people still refuse to vaccinate their children. Madness. Another problem is religion. I have met people of certain orders that do not use medicine due to one line in a religious text, that has been taken totally out of context. But people do insist on believing in superstitions and not qualified professionals. Humans eh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Humans are gullible and the placebo effect is very powerful. I am currently moderating an ongoing debate surrounding &#8220;fat burning beads&#8221; which the UK has banned the sale of, but Americans are still getting spammed to death. People want to believe it works. Research (citation required&#8230;) has shown that acupuncture/acupressure does have a beneficial effect, but only due to the powerful placebo effect. People think it makes them better, so it does. After explaining this, one would be customer actually said &#8220;Would a placebo help me?&#8221; Ummm&#8230; yeah, so long as you do not know its a placebo &#8230;..</p>
<p>The keyword here though is complimentary. Compliment good medicine, but never use only alternatives.</p>
<p>As for vaccines, people just ignore science. There are countless research papers proving that there is no link between MMR and Autism, but just because a tabloid doctor said there was 10 years ago, people still refuse to vaccinate their children. Madness. Another problem is religion. I have met people of certain orders that do not use medicine due to one line in a religious text, that has been taken totally out of context. But people do insist on believing in superstitions and not qualified professionals. Humans eh?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Kavanagh</title>
		<link>http://frontierpsychiatrist.co.uk/reader-i-went-to-a-complimentary-therapy-debate-and-had-these-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-11366</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Kavanagh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:55:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://frontierpsychiatrist.co.uk/?p=608#comment-11366</guid>
		<description>The Q &amp; A portion of debates/talks is often quite painful but I can only imagine what it would have been like in this case.

It&#039;s a pity I didn&#039;t know about this event as I would have liked to attend myself but thanks for the write up!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Q &amp; A portion of debates/talks is often quite painful but I can only imagine what it would have been like in this case.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a pity I didn&#8217;t know about this event as I would have liked to attend myself but thanks for the write up!</p>
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		<title>By: NiroZ</title>
		<link>http://frontierpsychiatrist.co.uk/reader-i-went-to-a-complimentary-therapy-debate-and-had-these-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-11365</link>
		<dc:creator>NiroZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:51:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://frontierpsychiatrist.co.uk/?p=608#comment-11365</guid>
		<description>I think Steven Novella summed it up best describing the anti-vaccine crowd, when he was discussing with someone the lack of sympathy the anti-vacc showed to the parents of a baby who died of whooping cough. It&#039;s like a cult. They&#039;re small groups of people with authoritarian leaders, who often believe that there is a vast conspiracy against them. I&#039;m not sure if it&#039;s correct, but social psychology talks about how often when opposed by on opposite view, people tend towards the extreme&#039;s into order to fight the opposing view. You also have to bear in mind that often these people feel like they&#039;ve been wronged by conventional medicine in some manner.

I&#039;ve experience it myself when I voiced my suspicion of cold laser therapy administered by a chiropractor, they go ape mad and start obsessively attacking you. One of their favourite methods is to accuse you of a conspiracy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Steven Novella summed it up best describing the anti-vaccine crowd, when he was discussing with someone the lack of sympathy the anti-vacc showed to the parents of a baby who died of whooping cough. It&#8217;s like a cult. They&#8217;re small groups of people with authoritarian leaders, who often believe that there is a vast conspiracy against them. I&#8217;m not sure if it&#8217;s correct, but social psychology talks about how often when opposed by on opposite view, people tend towards the extreme&#8217;s into order to fight the opposing view. You also have to bear in mind that often these people feel like they&#8217;ve been wronged by conventional medicine in some manner.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve experience it myself when I voiced my suspicion of cold laser therapy administered by a chiropractor, they go ape mad and start obsessively attacking you. One of their favourite methods is to accuse you of a conspiracy.</p>
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